.........
The
proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken
in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 10:16.
The meeting began at 10:16.
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan
Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
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Nid oes recordiad ar gael o ddechrau’r
cyfarfod. No recording is available of the
start of the meeting.
|
[1]
Bethan Jenkins:
—sy’n drwm eu clyw.
Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1 a gellir
chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0.
|
Bethan Jenkins: —for
those who are hard of hearing. The interpretation is
available on channel 1 and amplification is available on channel
0.
|
[2]
Peidiwch â chyffwrdd
â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall hynny amharu
ar y system sain, a gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau
siarad.
|
Please don’t touch the buttons on the microphones because
that can interfere with the sound system, and please check that the
red light is on before speaking.
|
[3]
A all Aelodau plîs ddatgan
unrhyw fuddiannau sydd ganddyn nhw? Dim byd. Ymddiheuriadau a
dirprwyon—dim byd i nodi yma heddiw.
|
Do
Members have any declarations of interest? I see that there are
none. There are no apologies to be noted today.
|
[4]
Just before I begin this particular evidence session, I’d
like to state on record that it’s regrettable that, after
offering various local councils a number of dates to contribute
oral evidence to our inquiry on the Welsh Government’s new
Welsh language strategy, they were unable to attend any of those
dates. This is a crucial viewpoint that will now not be covered as
robustly as intended, and I would like to urge the local
authorities to contribute written evidence as soon as possible in
order for their views to be considered.
|
10:17
|
Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr
Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Ragarweiniol 2
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Preliminary Evidence
Session 2
|
[5]
Bethan Jenkins:
Symudwn ymlaen nawr at eitem 2,
ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a gwella mynediad ati. Diolch yn fawr
iawn heddiw i Gareth Pierce, prif weithredwr CBAC, a hefyd i
Matthew Jones, rheolwr cerddoriaeth ieuenctid Celfyddydau
Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru, am ddod mewn atom heddiw fel rhan
o’r ymchwiliad heddiw. Y cwestiwn cyntaf gen i, wrth gwrs, yw
i ofyn os oes diweddariad gennych chi ar ad-drefnu sydd wedi
cychwyn, y bwrdd interim ensemblau cenedlaethol, ac unrhyw
ddatganiadau cyntaf sydd gennych chi fel mudiad.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We’ll move on therefore to item 2, funding for
and access to music education, a preliminary evidence session.
Thank you very much to Gareth Pierce, the chief executive of WJEC,
and also Matthew Jones, the manager for youth music from National
Youth Arts Wales, for joining us for our inquiry today. The first
question will be from me, and I’d like to ask whether you
have an update about the reorganisation that has begun, the interim
board for the national ensembles, and any other opening statements
that you would like to make as an organisation.
|
[6]
Mr Pierce: Iawn. O ran cefndir i’r diweddariad,
efallai y dylwn i ddweud, tua dwy flynedd yn ôl, gwnaethom ni
yn CBAC, ar ran celfyddydau ieuenctid, sydd wedi bod yn rhan o CBAC
mewn gwirionedd ers blynyddoedd, at Lywodraeth Cymru i roi gwybod
iddyn nhw bod yna risg sylweddol i’r ddarpariaeth oherwydd
lleihad yn y cyllid a fyddai’n dod o’r awdurdodau
lleol. Felly, hwnnw oedd y prif bwynt. Yr ail bwynt hefyd yw y
byddem ni’n deall pryder celfyddydau Cymru nad oedd trefniant
llywodraethu cadarn ar gyfer NYAW, a oedd yn bartneriaeth weddol
llac rhwng Tŷ Cerdd a CBAC. Ac felly, dyna’r ail bwynt
roedd eisiau edrych arno.
|
Mr
Pierce: Okay. In terms of background to the update, I should
say that, around two years ago, we as WJEC, on behalf of youth
arts, which has been part of WJEC for some years, approached the
Welsh Government to inform them that there was a grave risk to
provision because of the reductions in funding available from local
authorities. So, that was the main point. And the second point was
that we understood the concerns of arts Wales that there
weren’t strong governance arrangements in place for NYAW,
which was a loose arrangement between the WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd.
That was the second point that needed to be looked at.
|
[7]
Felly, yn ystod 2015, buodd grŵp
tasg yn cwrdd i drafod y materion hyn. I raddau, buaswn i’n
dweud mai disgrifio’r broblem wnaethon nhw, ond fe wnaeth
hynny arwain at sefydlu bwrdd interim. Ac, yn ystod 2016,
mae’r bwrdd interim wedi gweithio ar sefydlu cwmni newydd,
sydd hefyd wedi cael statws elusen, ac mae’r bwrdd bychan
hwnnw nawr wrthi yn paratoi ar gyfer y dyfodol ac maen nhw wedi
penodi rheolwr dros gyfnod byr, trosiannol, o’r enw Peter
Bellingham. Felly, mae e’n edrych ar y posibiliadau ar gyfer,
mewn gwirionedd, 2018 ymlaen.
|
Now, in 2015, a
task and finish group met to discuss these issues. To all intents
and purposes, they described the problem, but that did lead to the
establishment of an interim board. And, during 2016, the interim
board worked on the establishment of a new company, which also has
charitable status, and that small board now is preparing for the
future and they have appointed an interim manager, Peter
Bellingham, and he is looking at the possibilities for 2018
onwards.
|
[8]
Yn y cyfamser, mae Tŷ Cerdd a
CBAC wedi cytuno i ddarparu’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer haf 2017
eleni. Ond rydym ni’n dal i drafod materion manwl ynghylch
hynny gyda’r bwrdd newydd, fel bod yna ddealltwriaeth
ariannol yn arbennig, achos mae’r cyngor celfyddydau yn rhoi
£350,000 o arian i’r bwrdd newydd. Ond, wrth gwrs,
mae’n rhaid i ni, mewn ffordd, gael trefniant gyda nhw ar
gyfer darpariaeth 2017. Ac mae Matthew yn gweithio ar ran helaeth
o’r ddarpariaeth yna, ac mae Tŷ Cerdd hefyd yn gweithio
ar eu rhan nhw o’r ddarpariaeth.
|
In the
meantime, Tŷ Cerdd and the WJEC have agreed to make provision
for the summer of 2017. But we are still discussing the minutiae
surrounding that with the new board, so that there is a financial
understanding in place, particularly because the arts council does
provide £350,000 to this new board. But, of course, we do
have to have arrangements in place for the 2017 provision. And
Matthew is working on a large part of that provision and Tŷ
Cerdd are also working on their part.
|
10:20
|
[9]
Bethan Jenkins: Matthew.
|
[10]
Mr Jones: The orchestra residency, historically, has always
run during the summer holiday time, and so we’re running the
residency as we would normally do so this year. So, we’re
inviting back Carlo Rizzi to work with the National Youth Orchestra
of Wales this year and we’ll be conducting a 12-day residency
and concert tour, with performances in Bangor, St David’s
Cathedral, as part of the Fishguard festival, and then St
David’s Hall. We’re just in the process of completing
our recruitment process and all auditions have been held across
Wales over the last few weekends. I know that it’s been
widely presented that numbers have been down in terms of
applications for the orchestra this year, which is true—they
have been. I think there are a number of reasons for that, but
I’m glad to say that, as we speak at the moment, we’ll
be putting together an orchestra of a very similar standard and
size to the one that we’ve been able to achieve over the last
70 years.
|
[11]
Bethan Jenkins: Just quickly from me, Owen Arwel
Hughes obviously said that he would be pleased to offer the people
he knows to tutor or to do so voluntarily. Has he approached you or
have you approached him, or do you need his support in any way or
have you got those tutors already in train for this year?
|
[12]
Mr Jones: Actually, we retain a large percentage of the
tutorial team that Owain worked with in his time with the
orchestra. I joined the orchestra in 2007, at which point Owain was
the music director. A lot of the team that he brought in, as well
as the team that had been there previously, still work with us and
we still work with highly regarded professional musicians from
across the UK. A lot of them are former members of the orchestra
back in their day, but we work with principal musicians from UK
orchestras.
|
[13]
Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Jeremy.
|
[14]
Jeremy Miles: Others are going to ask you about funding and
the on-the-ground impact, so to speak, of the reorganisation. I
want to ask about what the reorganisation amounts to and the
sustainability issues around that.
|
[15]
Fe wnaethoch chi sôn bod y
corff newydd wedi’i gofrestru fel elusen eisoes.
|
You mentioned
the fact that the new body has been registered as a charity
already.
|
[16]
Mr Pierce: Ydy.
|
Mr
Pierce: It has.
|
[17]
Jeremy Miles:
O ran strwythur y peth, pwy
sy’n rheoli’r elusen, fel petai? Pwy yw aelodau’r
elusen, os gallaf ei ddweud e yn y ffordd yna?
|
Jeremy
Miles: In terms of its structure, who manages the charity, so
to speak? Who are the members of the charity, if I can put it like
that?
|
[18]
Mr Pierce: Mae’r elusen yn cael eu rheoli gan ei
bwrdd nhw, felly mae’n fwrdd annibynnol ac maen nhw
wedi’u cofrestru fel cwmni cyfyngedig trwy warant, a hefyd,
ers hynny, wedi cael statws elusen. Mae bwrdd CBAC wedi cadw ar
agor ar gyfer yr elusen yr opsiwn iddyn nhw fod yn is-gwmni o fewn
CBAC, achos barn ein cyfarwyddwr ni yw fod yna lawer iawn o risgiau
ynghylch hyn i gyd. Mae’n dipyn o her i sefydliad bach iawn i
fynd ynghylch yr holl fater o ddarparu yn ogystal â mynd ar
ôl ffynonellau ariannol. CBAC yw’r cyflogwr, ar hyn o
bryd, i’r staff, gan gynnwys Matthew a chan gynnwys Matthew
Thistlewood sydd yn Nhŷ Cerdd. Felly, mae yna gymhlethdodau
wrth gwrs yn mynd i godi o ran trosglwyddo staff os ydy’r
elusen yn mynd i fod yn wir annibynnol. Felly, barn bwrdd CBAC yw y
gall fod yna fanteision iddyn nhw barhau’r berthynas â
CBAC o fewn grŵp, a byddwn ni, wrth gwrs, yn gallu parchu
annibyniaeth yr elusen o fewn y strwythur hwnnw, ond, wrth gwr,s
mater i’r elusen newydd yw a oes ganddyn nhw ddiddordeb yn
hynny o gwbl.
|
Mr
Pierce: The charity is managed by its own board, and so
it’s an independent board and they are registered as a
limited company by guarantee and also, since then, have been given
charity status. The WJEC board has kept open for the charity the
option to be a subsidiary within WJEC, because of our
director’s opinion that there are many risks related to this.
It’s a challenge for a very small organisation to deal with
this whole issue of making provision as well as finding funding
sources. WJEC is the employer of the staff at the moment, including
Matthew, and including Matthew Thistlewood at Tŷ Cerdd. Therefore, there are some
complications that will arise in terms of the transference of staff
if the charity is to be truly independent. So, it’s the WJEC
board’s view that there may be advantages in maintaining that
relationship within the group and we could respect the independence
of the charity within that structure, but it’s a matter for
the new charity as to whether they are interested in that sort of
arrangement.
|
[19]
Jeremy Miles:
Felly, ar hyn o bryd, mae’r
elusen neu’r corff yn annibynnol yn strwythurol, ond rydych
chi wedi secondio, mwy neu lai, staff wrth CBAC—
|
Jeremy
Miles: So, at the moment, the charity or the organisation is
independent structurally, but you have seconded, more or less,
staff from the WJEC—
|
[20]
Mr Pierce: Na, dim eto, oherwydd Peter Bellingham
ydy’r unig berson y mae’r elusen newydd yn ei gyflogi.
Ar hyn o bryd, CBAC sydd yn dal i gyflogi pawb sy’n ymwneud
â’r ddarpariaeth. Felly, mewn ffordd mae’n
gwestiwn i’r elusen newydd o ran beth maen nhw eisiau ei
wneud o ran staffio ar gyfer y dyfodol, ac a ydyn nhw’n moyn
mynd trwy broses TUPE, er enghraifft, er mwyn i staff symud
o’r darparwr presennol i’r elusen newydd neu a ydyn
nhw’n moyn edrych ar berthynas is-gwmni, neu a ydyn
nhw’n moyn jest gwneud y pethau lefel uchel strategol a
chontractio gyda phobl fel CBAC a Thŷ Cerdd i ddarparu neu
gontractio gyda phobl eraill i ddarparu.
|
Mr
Pierce: No, not yet, because Peter Bellingham is the only
individual employed by the new charity. At the moment, WJEC
continue to employ everyone related to provision. So, in a way,
it’s a question for the new charity as to what they want to
do in terms of staffing for the future and whether they want to go
through a TUPE process for staff to transfer from the current
provider to the new charity or whether they want to look at a
subsidiary-type relationship or whether they want to do the
high-level strategic issues and to contract with people such as the
WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd or to
contract with others to make provision.
|
[21]
Jeremy Miles:
Felly, maen nhw’n ddyddiau
cynnar o ran y penderfyniadau hynny ar hyn o bryd.
|
Jeremy Miles: So, it’s basically early days in terms
of those decisions in this process.
|
[22]
Mr Pierce: Maen nhw’n ddyddiau cynnar, ond, wrth
gwrs, mae’r cloc yn ticio.
|
Mr
Pierce: It is indeed, but, of course, the clock is ticking.
|
[23]
Jeremy Miles:
Ydy, yn union.
|
Jeremy
Miles: Yes, exactly.
|
[24]
Mr Pierce: Felly, rŷm ni’n gobeithio y bydd yna
dipyn o symud yn digwydd yn y cyfnod—nid wyf yn
siŵr—hyd at chwe mis, lle mae Peter Bellingham wedi ei
benodi gan yr elusen newydd.
|
Mr
Pierce: Therefore, we’re hoping that there will be some
movement in that period of—I’m not sure—up to six
months, where Peter Bellingham has been appointed by the new
charity.
|
[25]
Jeremy Miles:
A phryd fydd yr arian—wel, bydd
eraill yn gofyn am yr arian, felly fe adawaf i hynny am nawr. O ran
y staff rŷch chi’n sôn amdanyn nhw, mae toriadau
wedi bod yn y strwythur newydd i’r strwythur oedd yno
ynghynt. Beth fydd effaith hynny ar allu’r corff newydd i
ddarparu’r gwasanaethau y bydd eu hangen?
|
Jeremy Miles: When will the
funding—well, others will come on to that, so I’ll
leave that for now. In terms of the staff that you’re talking
about, there have been cuts in terms of moving from the old
structure to the new structure. What will the impact of that be on
the ability of the organisation to provide the services
required?
|
[26]
Mr Pierce: Wel, mae CBAC wedi
gorfod cwtogi ar staff yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf,
achos yn y flwyddyn honno yr aeth yr
arian o siroedd lawr o tua £400,000 i £270,000, ac,
felly, yn y flwyddyn honno, fe wnaethom ni haneru y tîm
cefnogi—a oedd eisoes yn dîm bychan, a oedd gan
Mathew—felly aeth y tîm hwnnw lawr o bedwar person yn y
tîm cefnogi, i lawr i ddau. Ond rŷm ni yn bwriadu rhedeg
ein rhan ni o’r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer yr haf hwn gyda’r
tîm bychan, ac mae Tŷ Cerdd yn yr un sefyllfa o fod
â thîm bach.
|
Mr
Pierce: Well, WJEC has had to make cuts to staff over the past
year because in that year the funding from the county councils went
down from some £400,000 to some £270,000, and in that
year we halved the size of the team—that was already a small
team that Matthew had—and that went down from four people in
the support team to two. But we do intend to run our part of
provision for this summer with that small team, and Tŷ Cerdd
are in the same situation of having a small team in place.
|
[27]
Jeremy Miles: Rŷch
chi’n hapus bod hynny’n ddigonol, a ydych chi?
Rŷch chi’n fodlon bod hynny’n ddigonol.
|
Jeremy
Miles: And you’re happy that that’s sufficient
then, are you? You are content that that is sufficient.
|
[28]
Mr Pierce: Wel, mae’n
bosib ei wneud e, ond, er mwyn iddo fe weithio, mae bwrdd
cyfarwyddwyr CBAC hefyd wedi cytuno i roi’r holl wasanaethau
ategol am ddim ar gyfer darpariaeth 2017, felly mae hynny’n
cynnwys gwasanaethau technoleg gwybodaeth, cyllid, adnoddau dynol,
y gofod lle mae’r tîm yn bodoli—popeth ategol,
mae bwrdd CBAC wedi cytuno i’w rhoi am ddim ar gyfer eleni er
mwyn helpu’r broses ac, yn bwysicaf, er mwyn bod yn hollol
siŵr bod y ddarpariaeth dda yma ar gael i bobl ifanc yn
2017.
|
Mr
Pierce: Well, it is achievable, but, for it to work, the WJEC
board of directors have provided all ancillary services free of
charge for the 2017 provision, so that includes IT services,
finance, human resources, the actual space where the team
exists—so all those ancillary things, WJEC is providing free
of charge for this year in order to assist the process and, more
importantly, to be entirely sure that this quality provision is
available for young people in 2017.
|
[29]
Jeremy Miles: Ocê. A
beth yw perthynas y corff newydd gyda’r awdurdodau
lleol—a oes perthynas ffurfiol?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Okay. And what kind of relationship does the new
organisation have with local authorities—is there a formal
relationship?
|
[30]
Mr Pierce: Buaswn i’n
dweud na, dim perthynas ffurfiol, ond efallai y gallaf i ddod yn
ôl at hynny. Mae CBAC wedi gohebu’n ddiweddar
gyda’r awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â chyfraniadau
ariannol posibl ar gyfer 2017.
|
Mr
Pierce: I would say no, there is no formal relationship, but
perhaps I could return to that—. WJEC has corresponded
recently with local authorities on possible financial contributions
for 2017.
|
[31]
Jeremy Miles: Ond nid ydyn
nhw’n rhan o’r strwythur fel cyfranddalwyr neu ar y
bwrdd.
|
Jeremy
Miles: But they’re not a part of the structure, as
stakeholders or board members.
|
[32]
Mr Pierce: Na, nid ydyn nhw’n rhan o’r
strwythur. Pobl annibynnol yw’r aelodau a’r bwrdd
elusen newydd.
|
Mr
Pierce: No, they’re not. The members are independent as
it the new charity board.
|
[33]
Jremy Miles:
A’r cwestiwn diwethaf: beth
ydych chi’n meddwl yw’r risg fwyaf i’r strwythur
newydd yn y cyfnod sydd yn dod?
|
Jeremy
Miles: And a final question: what do you think is the greatest
risk for the new organisation in the coming period?
|
[34]
Mr Pierce: Y risg fawr yw’r risg ariannol, sef dod o
hyd i ddigon o gyllid i gau y bwlch sydd nawr wedi agor. Mi oedd
yna tua £800,000 yn flynyddol ar gael i’r
gweithgareddau celfyddydau ieuenctid yn gymharol ddiweddar ac roedd
hynny’n galluogi i lawer iawn o bethau ddigwydd. Mae hynny
wedi lleihau i, mewn gwirionedd, £350,000 gan y cyngor
celfyddydau, ac felly mae yna fwlch o tua £450,000, a’r
unig beth all ddod mewn i gau’r bwlch hwnnw eleni yw’r
ymatebion y cawn ni gan yr awdurdodau lleol. Ond dof i yn ôl
at hynny wedyn.
|
Mr
Pierce: The greatest risk is the financial risk—that is,
securing sufficient funding to close the gap that’s now
opened. There was some £800,000 available annually for youth
arts activities relatively recently, and that allowed a great many
things to happen. That has now been reduced, in reality, to
£350,000 from the arts council, and so there’s a
deficit of some £450,000, and the only thing that can
actually fill that gap this year is the responses that we receive
from local authorities. But I’ll come back to that issue
later.
|
[35]
Jeremy Miles:
Rwy’n cymryd eich bod chi wedi
penderfynu bod y corff yn elusennol er mwyn ei fod e’n gallu
derbyn arian, donations, oddi wrth bobl.
|
Jeremy
Miles: I take that you’ve decided that the body should be
a charity so that it can receive donations from people.
|
[36]
Mr Pierce: Ie. Buaswn i’n meddwl bod y bwrdd newydd
wedi gwneud y penderfyniad—nid ydw i ar y bwrdd newydd, gyda
llaw—o blith y modelau llywodraethiant a’r cwmnïau
a oedd ar gael, a model y cwmni cyfyngedig drwy warant a hefyd
statws elusennol—y ddau beth gyda’i gilydd oedd y model
priodol.
|
Mr
Pierce: Yes. It was a decision for the board, and I’m not
on the board, by the way. The board made the decision that, of the
governance models available to them, the limited company by
guarantee and the charitable status was the appropriate model.
|
[37]
Jeremy Miles:
Diolch.
|
[38]
Bethan Jenkins:
Mae hynny’n ein harwain ni tuag
at y cwestiynau cyllid, so gall Lee Waters arwain ar
hynny.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: That leads us onto questions on funding, and Lee
Waters will be leading on that.
|
[39]
Bethan Jenkins: But, Matthew, if you wanted to come in
though—.
|
[40]
Mr Jones: I just wanted to say, just in terms of the
staffing and the reduction in staffing that we’ve suffered
over the last year, that has caused a massive impact on the team
that are delivering what we strive to be high-quality residencies
and experiences for young people in Wales. I think, just in terms
of the new board and moving forward and any implications that that
might have, actually the staffing structure needs to be enhanced
and, I think, leading on to the funding side of things, what is of
paramount importance is having someone that is able to take on a
fundraising role for the orchestra or for the National Youth Arts
Wales body. Both Pauline, my line manager, and I have applied with
some varying success to trusts and foundations for National Youth
Arts Wales over the past few years, but we have to do that in
context with the rest of our work. So, where we’ve lost
capacity, we’ve had to take on other things, and that side of
our work has been more difficult. So, I think moving forward the
staffing structure needs to be enhanced.
|
[41]
Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Lee.
|
[42]
Lee Waters: Thank you. Just to follow up on that point, what
are the plans to enhance the staffing structure to meet that
fundraising need?
|
[43]
Mr Jones: I don’t know, to be honest. I think the new
board, which we’ve had limited work with so far, have put
into their plan to bring in a fundraising specialist. I know that
there’s a consultant who’s currently working with the
new board to bring in some money, especially for transition funds.
In terms of the long-term future, I hope that the board will bring
that into their equation.
|
10:30
|
[44]
Mr Pierce: Perhaps just on that point as well, the WJEC
agreed to release to the new board some of the funding we’d
been awarded by the arts council for the current financial year.
So, for the January to March period, they’ve had the benefit
of some funding we agreed to be transferred to them. My
understanding is that’s partly for fundraising.
|
[45]
Lee Waters: I’d just like to get a very clear picture
of the exact funding situation at the minute. You said you’re
getting £350,000 from the arts council for 2016-17 and
you’ve also been given £270,000 for 2016-17 from local
authorities, but that’s not on a recurring basis;
that’s a one-off. But you said you’re in conversations
about trying to have a further contribution for subsequent
years.
|
[46]
Mr Pierce: Yes, that’s right. Those two figures were
the figures that were in place for the financial year that’s
now just coming to an end. Therefore, when we were delivering the
2016 activities through Tŷ Cerdd, through the WJEC, and
through the NYAW team, those were the two major sources of
funding—the £350,000 from the arts council and the
£270,000 or so from the local authorities.
|
[47]
Lee Waters: Right, so that’s for the financial year
that’s about to end.
|
[48]
Mr Pierce: Yes, now we’re looking forward to the 2017
summer. The £350,000 still exists, but that is now awarded to
the new body.
|
[49]
Lee Waters: That’s available for 2017-18, is it, the
£350,000?
|
[50]
Mr Pierce: Yes, for 2017-18. But, as I mentioned earlier,
we’ve then got to agree with them—. As they’re
expecting us to do the delivery, we need to agree with them how
much of the £350,000 they will contribute to our delivery
activities.
|
[51]
Lee Waters: Right. You mentioned earlier a figure of
£800,000, which had been the global figure. So, there’s
obviously a gap between the £620,000 you’ve just
described and the £800,000. So, where’s that?
|
[52]
Mr Pierce: The £800,000 was in place when the local
authorities, between them, were contributing well over
£400,000. So, that goes back three or four years and
that’s probably when we had—. That was still not a
generous pot of money altogether, but it certainly was leaving
National Youth Arts Wales in a good place, I think, to fulfil the
ambitions.
|
[53]
Lee Waters: So, within recent memory, you’ve been
having £800,000 a year, but in 2016-17, you had
£620,000.
|
[54]
Mr Pierce: Yes, that’s right.
|
[55]
Lee Waters: That’s all, that was it. And potentially
for 2017-18, it’s going to be less than that again.
|
[56]
Mr Pierce: Yes, that’s right.
|
[57]
Lee Waters: Okay.
|
[58]
Mr Pierce: Also, linked to that, of course, the other
important source of income is the fees the young people themselves
pay. This links to another thing, which I think we’re going
to come back to later, which is to do with access. We’ve
always had a policy of maintaining the fees at an accessible level.
Nevertheless, we have now standardised the fees across Tŷ
Cerdd and WJEC over the recent years, at around about £42 per
24-hour residential period. So, that means that a young person
coming to the orchestra—Matthew mentioned a 12-day
residential period—pays about £500, and a young person
coming to the youth theatre or youth dance, who have longer
residencies because of the preparation and rehearsal work they need
to do, could be paying in excess of £800 each.
|
[59]
Lee Waters: Does that cover the costs?
|
[60]
Mr Pierce: No, that’s a contribution. The costs are
very much subsidised, which is why the arts council funding and the
local authority money has been so important historically.
|
[61]
Lee Waters: It seems to me—. Having had experience of
running a small charity that needed to raise funds, I appreciate
how difficult it is. The situation you’re
describing—the drop you’ve had from £800,000 to
£620,000 this year—. The situation next year looks
likely to be even less than that. Matthew Jones described that,
under the current staffing levels, it’s a huge strain. The
situation he described, of post holders whose main role was to run
the service also having to do funding applications, seems to me
unsustainable at best and highly unlikely to be successful.
I’ve worked with fundraising consultants too, and they tell
you the possibilities, but the reality is, for every 10 to 20
applications you put it, you’re lucky if you get one or two,
and that’s pushing it. So, it seems to me, from what
you’ve described—I hate to use words such as
‘crisis’, because I think they’re overblown in
the political context, but having been in a similar situation to
you, running a charity in a financial crisis, this seems like a
familiar picture to the one I’ve experienced in the
past—you need to be shouting, ‘Fire, fire’, here
because this is a grim situation you’re describing.
|
[62]
Mr Pierce: Yes, it’s a managed crisis maybe, because,
of course, the task group made a
whole range of recommendations, and also had evidence on
fundraising. So the management part of this is—we’re
waiting, really, for the newly agreed setup to get going,
especially on fundraising. It’s also worth remembering that
the task group report did refer to possible Welsh Government
funding strands, but none of those have yet materialised. But also,
the advice we had, linking to the comment you’ve just made,
was that if there’s a funding target of about £0.25
million, then the likelihood is that you’ve got to spend
about £100,000 on efforts to raise £250,000.
|
[63]
Lee Waters: And that’s going to take some time to show
fruit.
|
[64]
Mr Pierce: Yes. And of course, that’s also why
WJEC’s board wants to be as supportive as possible in this
transition period, to make sure that any sense of crisis does not
translate into opportunities not being there in any of the
years—2017 and even 2018.
|
[65]
Lee Waters: So, in 2017-18, the financial year which is
about to start, the only committed funds you have is the
£350,000 from the arts council.
|
[66]
Mr Pierce: Yes.
|
[67]
Lee Waters: So you’ve got a shortfall of
£270,000, which was the money that local authorities
contributed.
|
[68]
Mr Pierce: Yes.
|
[69]
Lee Waters: They told you when they gave you that not to
expect it again, but you were pushing your luck. Your chances of
success are—who knows? And even were you able to get that
figure, you were still in the situation that Matthew Jones
described of having a real problem operationally. So, if local
authorities don’t come up with the £270,000, which,
given that they said they wouldn’t, seems to me a reasonable
assumption, you’re then hoping the Welsh Government will bail
you out to get you back to that figure of £620,000?
|
[70]
Mr Pierce: No, not necessarily. I think the action that
WJEC’s board is already taking and agreeing to will help
through the period of summer 2017, which is almost buying time for
the new charity to get its fundraising going.
|
[71]
Lee Waters: How so? I don’t get it.
|
[72]
Mr Pierce: Well for example, I mentioned that all the
support service charges are being essentially put to one
side—
|
[73]
Lee Waters: That’s for this financial year.
|
[74]
Mr Pierce: No, that’s for the next financial year.
|
[75]
Lee Waters: Right, but you did say that you wanted to recoup
some of those costs.
|
[76]
Mr Pierce: No, not those costs. The WJEC’s board is
prepared to see through 2017 on the best terms we possibly
can—
|
[77]
Lee Waters: But in subsequent years, you expect some kind of
arrangement.
|
[78]
Mr Pierce: I think when we’re looking ahead to, maybe,
the 2018 deliverables, hopefully the newly set-up organisation will
have its fundraising act going. Well ahead of them, we
are—
|
[79]
Lee Waters: That seems optimistic in the space of a
year.
|
[80]
Mr Pierce: Well, a year to 18 months, before they
start—
|
[81]
Lee Waters: From a standing start to replacing the
£270,000 a year.
|
[82]
Mr Pierce: Well, exactly, which is why we’ve been very
disappointed with the timelines to date—that a whole year
went on the task group describing the problem, and a whole year has
also then gone on an interim board becoming a board, and getting
itself set up. I agree with you totally that the timeline that was
there originally has been dissipated. We are much closer now to
impacting on deliverables, but WJEC is particularly keen to do all
we can to make sure that deliverables are not adversely affected.
The team Matthew had last summer is the same team he’ll have
this summer, so we will deliver, there’s no question about
that, and Tŷ Cerdd the same.
|
[83]
Mr Jones: The key thing is that, actually, this year is
being seen as a transition year, so activity has been—
|
[84]
Lee Waters: Sorry, with ‘this year’ do you mean
2016-17 or 2017-18?
|
[85]
Mr Jones: In 2017-18. So, the activity that will happen in
the summer of 2017 has been reduced—not so much in the
orchestra or the music ensembles, but actually the dance and
theatre programme, which is the biggest drain on our funding.
Resources have been considerably reduced, so young people who are
engaging with National Youth Dance Wales or the National Youth
Theatre of Wales in 2017 will have a shorter experience.
We’ll have a year-round experience, and we’ll still be
focussing on high-level and high-quality training, but it
won’t be the three-week residency that they’ve
experienced in the past with performances across Wales.
|
[86]
Lee Waters: Okay. Can I just focus on the finances for a
second, rather than just the implications? Sorry to be hard-headed
about it, but the £350,000 from the arts council, how secure
is that into the future?
|
[87]
Mr Pierce: That is part of a revenue funding agreement,
which I understand is usually set on a three-year basis, but is
always subject to review by the arts council’s governing body
when they get the Welsh Government’s annual award.
|
[88]
Lee Waters: Right, but all other things being equal, how
long do you expect that to be secure for?
|
[89]
Mr Pierce: Well, I think the arts council are absolutely
committed to the importance of youth arts, and therefore
that’s probably as secure an element as you could possibly
get.
|
[90]
Lee Waters: That’s fairly solid. So, for 2017-18, you
need the £270,000 to be made up by either local government or
Welsh Government or a combination of the two to stand still. For
2018-19, you need the new charity to be up and running and
fundraising to replace that £270,000 entirely, plus a
contribution to the WJEC for its facilities, plus extra funding to
bring in a permanent fundraising team and to expand the activities.
So, you need the new organisation to be raising in excess of
£350,000 a year from a standing start within 18 months.
|
[91]
Mr Pierce: Ideally.
|
[92]
Lee Waters: Yes, well that’s—
|
[93]
Mr Pierce: But, of course, they should also, hopefully,
carry on the conversations we’ve been carrying on with the
local authorities. The WJEC wrote to the local authorities just
before Christmas setting out the situation for 2017 and inviting
them all to contribute. We’ve asked for responses by this
week; so, some responses are now coming in, and some of those are
positive. It’s important to bear in mind, though, that
there’s no longer a collective will through either the WLGA
or through ADEW, the association of directors of education, to have
a collective agreement drawing all 22 authorities into it.
That’s been made clear a while back. That collective will is
no longer there, and therefore we have been focusing on
communication with individual authorities. Therefore, each
authority will make its own decision, and some of them are going to
make positive decisions, because we have had some positive
responses.
|
[94]
Lee Waters: But that is a significant and ongoing gap to
fill—
|
[95]
Mr Pierce: Oh, yes, absolutely.
|
[96]
Lee Waters: —which local authorities and the WJEC are
going to delegate to a voluntary board with some fundraising staff.
So, just to finish, Chair, we need to be clear about the scale of
that challenge: that is a significant ongoing challenge.
|
[97]
Mr Pierce: Yes, absolutely.
|
[98]
Lee Waters: Okay. Thank you.
|
[99]
Bethan Jenkins: Suzy wants to come in briefly on this.
|
[100] Suzy
Davies: Yes. Just one question. Obviously, there’s going
to be a level of population transfer between the existing
arrangements and the new arrangements, but like any new structural
arrangements, there are going to be upfront costs. I wonder whether
you can give us an idea of how much of the tiny amount of money
you’ve got will be soaked up doing that. Then, what
operational savings are likely to be coming forward as a result of
the new structure? Is it going to be cheaper to do it this way?
|
[101] Mr
Pierce: I don’t think that’s necessarily going to
be the case. I think some of the set-up costs depend a lot on how
independent the new organisation wants to be. That’s why I
mentioned earlier that WJEC’s board is keeping on the table,
if the new organisation wants it, the option of being within the
WJEC group. So, that is one way of looking at set-up costs very,
very differently. I can’t really speak for the new
organisation in terms of what their view is of set-up costs, but I
would say that it depends a lot—if not entirely—on what
model exactly they decide to go for.
|
[102] Suzy
Davies: But potentially, quite a big chunk of this
revenue—I know that it’s one year’s
revenue—could turn out to be the equivalent of the capital
cost.
|
[103] Mr
Pierce: Yes. I think that’s an issue for them,
really.
|
[104] Suzy
Davies: Okay. Well, maybe we should ask—
|
[105] Mr
Pierce: But it is a very important issue, and it is an issue
for them.
|
[106] Bethan
Jenkins: I think, coming from this, it’s important that
we get Peter Bellingham in to ask him these questions. Jeremy.
|
[107] Jeremy
Miles: Just two specific questions. First, what is the value of
the services that WJEC are providing to the new organisation?
|
[108] Mr
Pierce: It’s of the order of £70,000, probably.
|
[109] Jeremy
Miles: £70,000.
|
[110] Mr
Pierce: Yes, per annum.
|
[111] Jeremy
Miles: Okay. And the second question is: you’ve both, I
think, mentioned the orchestra, the theatre and the dance
ensembles, but there were four other ensembles as well; does that
suggest that those are the three on which there is focus, and the
other four are not being focused on in the same way?
|
[112] Mr
Pierce: No, I think they have equal status in the portfolio,
but there are two differences. The other four are delivered through
our partner in the previous National Youth Arts Wales, Tŷ
Cerdd, and delivered very successfully by them. They tend to have
considerably shorter residential periods. That’s the big, big
difference.
|
[113] Jeremy
Miles: And are they going to continue being provided by Tŷ
Cerdd, then?
|
[114] Mr
Pierce: Well, again, that’s a matter for the new charity.
They’ve got the option of continuing to contract with, say,
Tŷ Cerdd and WJEC for the deliverables, and they take the
strategic lead on the relationship with the arts council and on
fundraising. Again, that’s a question for them, really.
|
[115] Jeremy
Miles: But it has a large financial implication.
|
[116] Mr
Pierce: Potentially, yes.
|
[117] Bethan
Jenkins: Did you want to come in on that? I saw you—
|
10:45
|
[118] Mr
Jones: I was just going to say that, in terms of what I
understand, the position is that the transition for the new
organisation is for all the national ensembles from WJEC and
Tŷ Cerdd to come into this one organisation and be managed by
that one organisation. The funding that we’ve already talked
about does cover all of those ensembles. We’re talking mainly
about the orchestra, dance and theatre because that’s what
WJEC and we have had responsibility for in the past. But in terms
of moving forward, then I envisage there being one organisation
that looks after the seven.
|
[119]
Bethan Jenkins:
Hannah, mynediad gan bobl ifanc i
wasanaethau. Diolch.
|
Bethan Jenkins: Hannah, access by young people to services. Thank
you.
|
[120] Hannah
Blythyn: Diolch. Matthew, you referred in your response to one
of the first questions that applications for the orchestra are
down, and that there are a number of reasons for that. I
don’t know if you’re able to elaborate on what you
think the reasons are, and if there are any measures in place, or
what needs to be put in place to reverse that.
|
[121] Mr Jones:
Yes, sure. I do believe there are a number of reasons for why the
applications have been down. Part of it is a delay in our
recruitment process. With everything that’s going on within
the organisation, and us wanting to be clear on what we were able
to offer in the 2017 year, we delayed our recruitment process,
which normally happens in November, until the new year. So, I think
there are implications there in terms of the young people having
already organised other activities or holidays, that kind of thing.
I do think that the cost of the residency could be seen as a
barrier to some. I don’t have any strict evidence for that,
but given that in 2014 the cost of a residency was £280, and
this year we’re charging £500, there are people who may
not be able to afford that, and they aren’t necessarily the
people who would traditionally ask for bursaries.
|
[122] We have a
bursary programme, and we always convey on our application material
that bursaries are available and we don’t want anyone to stop
applying or becoming a member because of financial circumstances.
But there are some people who are quite used to us providing that
information and asking for bursaries and there are a number of
people for whom £500 is not a problem to pay. I think
it’s those people in the middle for whom, actually,
£500 is quite a lot of money to put out, especially when
it’s in the context of having to pay for everything else that
leads up to national membership. For them, they may decide that,
actually, ‘I’ve been a member of the orchestra for a
couple of years, for £500 I’m not going to do it this
year’. So, I think we’ve seen a reduction in numbers
from that point of view, as well.
|
[123] Bethan
Jenkins: Dawn.
|
[124] Dawn
Bowden: It’s kind of following on from that, really,
because if that is something that excludes quite large swathes of
the population, what, in your view, could we do to overcome that?
I’m thinking particularly about some of the significant areas
of deprivation where—you know, we’ve got food banks on
estates where people are not eating from day to day, so as you say,
finding £500 to go and become part of an orchestra is
probably not very high on the list of priorities. But I think what
we’ve heard previously is that the educational benefit of
being involved in something like this is quite significant. So,
what would you see as possibly a way of overcoming this?
|
[125] Mr Jones:
We’ve always represented extremely good value for money,
especially when we were able to charge what is a relatively small
amount of money, £280. I think the level of subsidy that we
were able to offer was through the support of the local authorities
and the money that came in from them. The difficulty we’re
finding now is that not only are our costs rising and the residency
fees rising, for a young person to come through the pyramid system,
which has served Wales and music education so well, they are now
having to pay at every level. They’re having to pay for their
individual lessons, they’re having to pay for their local
ensembles, which used to be free, and they’re now having to,
as well as the local ensembles, attend their regional ensembles,
which now are becoming more residential based, rather than weekly
rehearsals. So, there’s an expenditure there, as well, and I
think it’s at every level they’re getting hit at the
moment. A young person in Flintshire—I’m saying, just
off the back of it—if they want to attend a weekly rehearsal
of their local youth orchestra, attend then the four-counties youth
orchestra in north Wales and the north Wales youth orchestra,
before even getting to the National Youth Orchestra of Wales,
that’s a huge amount of expenditure that they’re having
to outlay. Where we’ve always benefited from local authority
support and had been able to create a very heavily subsidised fee,
it’s meant that, no matter what your background, there are
still bursaries there for people who can’t even afford the
£280. But, no matter what your background is, £280
isn’t a prohibitive figure; £500, I think, is.
It’s about affordability for the majority, not affordability
for the few.
|
[126] Mr
Pierce: Could I add, perhaps, we’ve had the very good
fortune, through the immense generosity of the Webber family from
Whitchurch in Cardiff, and the opportunity to set up a bursary
scheme for instrumental music? We used funds from that legacy for
the first time last summer, and I was very pleased that Mr Haydn
Webber was able to attend one of our events, because of the immense
generosity. We felt that was something that should be used over a
medium term of 20 to 25 years, rather than using it to sort a
short-term financial issue, so we use that to support young people
coming through for the orchestra or any of the instrumental
activities that Tŷ Cerdd run. We’re also able to use
that for developmental work relating to instruments and music,
like, for example, a young composers scheme. In the other
areas—
|
[127] Bethan
Jenkins: So that was a decision not to put it into the new
organisation, but to put it into the musicians themselves. So, can
you tell us how much that fund was, then, or—?
|
[128] Mr
Pierce: We think, at the rate of about £20,000 a year, it
should last about 25 years, given that we’re not going to get
much interest on it. So, therefore, it’s a very substantial
sum.
|
[129] Bethan
Jenkins: Right. But, who decided? So, it was the board of WJEC
who decided to spend it in this way, as opposed to spending it on
setting up the new organisation.
|
[130] Mr
Pierce: Yes, it was around the discussions around the wishes of
the family—
|
[131] Mr Jones:
It was a legacy.
|
[132] Mr
Pierce: To be fair to them, it’s such a substantial
legacy it deserves to be in place for a medium term, to recognise
that generosity. So, we’re able to use that. We can give full
bursaries for a small number of individuals in the context that
Matthew described, and also for two of the other ensemble, theatre
and drama, where the fees are even higher, WJEC has itself provided
bursaries last year. So, again, there are ways in which we can
assist individuals, but that’s particularly important now,
because we’re no longer in the era when local authorities
themselves have got bursaries of this kind. That used to be the
case, but that would be very rarely the case now.
|
[133] I think,
perhaps, another thing that needs to be mentioned in the context of
access is the general availability of local services. I know that
your remit does not include the curriculum, but you can’t
disconnect the two things. When you think that the number of young
people doing GCSE music has fallen in the last decade from 3,500,
which should have been a bit above 10 per cent of that age group,
down to 2,500 in a decade, so it’s now well below 10 per cent
pursuing music at GCSE, there’s an impact to that,
isn’t there, both for the individuals within the classroom
and, also, some of this comes from the pressure on the school
timetable. Therefore, if you start losing the skillset— and
the same applies to drama—in the teaching workforce in those
subjects, that skillset is also not available to support
extra-curricular activities in music and drama that are part of the
infrastructure and the pyramid that have allowed young people to
reach the level of excellence. So, I think that’s another
very, very important aspect of the wider picture of access,
especially if that is happening more in some areas of Wales than
others, including, possibly, the kinds of areas you mentioned.
|
[134] Dawn
Bowden: If I could just be able to follow on from that. So, do
you think then that the case has not been made strongly enough for
music and drama to be a core element of the curriculum?
|
[135] Mr
Pierce: Well, I think the case is very strongly made in the
Donaldson proposals, which are some years hence in terms of
implementation. But, I think, in the short term, there’s a
whole range of other impacts from what’s happening in the
school curriculum to key stage 4, in terms of what’s valued
in performance measures, what time is given to different
requirements within the curriculum, and certainly the subjects do
not feature prominently in that agenda currently. So, maybe
we’re in a really difficult period right now; hopefully, the
Donaldson period will be more positive in terms of the view taken
of these areas of the curriculum. But, of course, it presents a
challenge, then, of: how do you regain those skills in the teaching
workforce if they’re lost in the interim? So, I think
that’s a really major challenge.
|
[136]
Bethan Jenkins:
Could I just ask quickly? You said to Lee
Waters about the Welsh Government money with regard to the task and
finish group—I didn’t quite understand where that was
in the process. You said that it hadn’t been forthcoming, but
I didn’t understand what representations you had made,
either, just to clarify for the record.
|
[137]
Mr Pierce: The report of that task group bullet points a number
of possible strands of funding, and I think two of them were in the
Welsh Government arena. I think one of them is the music endowment
fund, and I think there’s one other one as well. So,
obviously, it’s now for the new charity to pursue those with
the Welsh Government, but I’m not aware that there’s
been any positive news on either of those strands.
|
[138]
Bethan Jenkins:
But you know that the new charity has
contacted the Welsh Government on asking for that funding
strand.
|
[139]
Mr Pierce: I wouldn’t know where they’ve got to, but
I would hope that the Welsh Government itself would be proactive if
those strands do exist, and the Welsh Government were part of that
task group, or at least their officials were there as observers in
the task group meetings. I would hope that the Welsh Government
itself would be proactive if those strands do in fact exist. But
maybe they don’t, after all, exist.
|
[140]
Bethan Jenkins:
Are there any other questions that
Members wanted to ask quickly? Yes, Jeremy.
|
[141]
Jeremy Miles: In the light of what you’ve just said about the
risk in the short term, before Donaldson, effectively, what’s
your view of the effectiveness, so far, of the national plan for
creative learning? One of the objectives of that is to enhance
access to all sorts of arts opportunities. What’s your view
of the success or otherwise of that, so far?
|
[142]
Mr Pierce: I wouldn’t say I’m an expert on that part
of the scenario. It seems to me that there are good plans, but
there are, in the meantime, a whole range of counter factors that
seem to be militating against the success of such plans, including
funding, including wider local service support, which obviously
links to funding, and perhaps including the other pressures in the
curriculum. So, I think perhaps the environment in which that plan
is aimed to be delivered has just become more and more
difficult.
|
[143]
Mr Jones: I think in terms, again, of access and a way forward,
the music services in Wales do a fantastic job, an excellent job,
in actually giving young people in Wales, no matter what their
background is, first access to a musical experience, by learning an
instrument in a whole-class environment and then following through
with peripatetic teaching, either in a group setting or on an
individual basis. And I think the greatest risk to access to the
top level of the pyramid, but also music education in Wales in
general, is the risk to the music services. I think they create the
bedrock of this pyramid. Wales has been the envy of the rest of UK.
When I meet with colleagues in the National Youth Orchestra of
Great Britain or Scotland or Ireland, they look enviously at the
relationship between the music services and our national groups,
and being able to see a clear progression from a three-year-old
picking up an instrument for the first time through to a
21-year-old performing at the top of their game and potentially
going on into a creative business themselves. I think that’s
a real key element to successful music education in
Wales.
|
[144]
Bethan Jenkins:
Suzy, briefly.
|
[145]
Suzy Davies: Yes, the Dai Smith report, which you’re
familiar with, said that we should be ensuring that equitable
provision is available to young people in all art forms. You
mentioned earlier, Matthew, that of the seven ensembles, the
theatre and dance ensembles are—the words you actually used
were ‘draining resources’. It’s going to be
something for the new body to manage, isn’t it, the tensions
between the different art forms in terms of how much resource
they’re going to get? How is that tension managed at the
moment?
|
[146]
Mr Jones: I’m not sure I said ‘draining
resources’. It’s not something I would normally
say.
|
[147]
Suzy Davies: Well, I wrote it down.
|
[148]
Mr Jones: I think they are—
|
[149]
Suzy Davies: I’m sure you didn’t mean that,
but—.
|
[150]
Mr Jones: At the moment, they’re managed extremely well.
I think there are obviously three strands—music, dance and
theatre—and it’s always been a clear request or
requirement for us, going forward into a new NYAW and a new
organisation that parity is key to those and that it’s not
just about the orchestra or any one of the music ensembles.
|
11:00
|
[151] It is the three
there. That’s going to be a challenge for the new
organisation, but it’s one that I think will be able to be
managed and has been for a number of years.
|
[152] Mr
Pierce: And that’s what’s important: the economics
of delivering these ensembles vary quite a lot.
|
[153]
Suzy Davies: I imagine so.
|
[154]
Mr Pierce: Because, for example, I mentioned the
Tŷ Cerdd ones—they tend to have shorter
residencies, but some of them have got quite sizeable numbers of
young people involved. The orchestra is a 12-day residency with 110
involved—110 young people. Theatre and drama are even longer
residencies, perhaps 30 days, and only maybe 20 young people
involved. So, the economics of those, relative to the income that
we can ever hope to get from the young people themselves, are quite
different and, therefore, in the total use of resources to deliver
a top-quality theatre experience and a top-quality youth dance
experience in Wales is, per head, more expensive. So, therefore, it
seems as if those require more subsidy, which is the case really.
If you want a genuine experience of being able to perform at
professional venues and being tutored by professional artists, the
economics are quite different. But that’s why I think keeping
all the art forms in one single, total package is always going to
be a good thing, because you can then look at your balance of the
use of resources in a creative way.
|
[155] In our
correspondence with local authorities, we have mentioned, in
particular, theatre and dance as the two where we could raise the
level of deliverables in summer 2017, if services in local
authorities contribute. We can really raise the ambition there from
what is fairly minimalist at the moment, whereas, with the
orchestra, we know we’ve got an ambitious plan, as always,
already in place.
|
[156]
Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you, and I appreciate that that
wasn’t the nicest of questions. Thank you.
|
[157]
Bethan Jenkins:
Thank you for coming in to give evidence
today. If you want to check the record, you can’t correct it,
but if you want to check it—. I think you did say that, but I
think it might not have been in the context in which we interpreted
it. But, have a look and see if you want to check it. Thanks for
coming in and obviously we’ll be taking more evidence down
the line, and hopefully we’ll be able to engage with you in
future. Diolch yn fawr.
|
[158]
Mr
Pierce: Diolch i chi.
|
Mr Pierce: Thank you.
|
[159]
Mr
Jones: Diolch yn fawr.
|
Mr Jones: Thank you.
|
[160]
Bethan Jenkins:
We’ll break for five minutes
now.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:02 ac 11:12.
The meeting adjourned between 11:02 and 11:12.
|
Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a
Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Ragarweiniol
3
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Preliminary Evidence
Session 3
|
[161]
Bethan Jenkins:
A dyma banel 2 ar gyfer eitem 3 ar
ariannu cerddoriaeth mewn addysg. A nawr mae gyda ni Karl
Napieralla, cadeirydd grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen blaenorol
Llywodraeth Cymru ar wasanaethau cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru, Emma
Coulthard, pennaeth gwasanaethau cerddoriaeth ar gyfer Caerdydd a
Bro Morgannwg, a Wayne Pedrick, sef rheolwr Cerdd NPT Music. Diolch
yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod. Rwy’n siŵr bod gan nifer o
Aelodau gwestiynau, ac mae Lee Waters am agor gyda’r
cwestiynau. Diolch.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: And now we have panel 2 for item 3 on funding for
music education. And now we have with us Karl Napieralla, the chair
of the Welsh Government’s previous task and finish group for
music services in Wales, Emma Coulthard, the head of music services
for Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan, and Wayne Pedrick, the
manager of Cerdd NPT Music. Thank you very much for coming to join
us today. I’m sure that many Members will have questions, and
Lee Waters will open up with his questions. Thank you.
|
[162] Lee
Waters: Hello. Thank you for coming. I wonder if we can just
start off by telling us what’s changed since you delivered
your task and finish report.
|
[163] Mr
Napieralla: I’m not perhaps the person to ask, in terms
of the fact that I’ve been away from Welsh Government for
just under a year now.
|
[164] Lee
Waters: Perhaps your colleagues would be better placed
to—
|
[165] Mr
Napieralla: My colleagues would probably come in on that.
|
[166] Lee
Waters: Okay. We’ll come back to you on a different
question then. I wonder if you’re able to give a snapshot of
what’s changed since the report.
|
[167] Ms
Coulthard: Nothing.
|
[168] Lee
Waters: Nothing’s changed. Okay.
|
[169] Ms
Coulthard: There you go. [Laughter.]
|
[170] Lee
Waters: And why is that?
|
[171] Ms
Coulthard: The task and finish report was excellent, but in
order to deliver it, we need the capacity and the commitment to do
that, and the things are not in place for us to be able to deliver
that to the level that is required.
|
[172] Lee
Waters: Okay. Do you have anything to add to that, Mr
Pedrick?
|
[173] Mr
Pedrick: On a personal level, from NPT, we’ve gone
through huge changes due to funding. From the Swansea end, we were
a joint working service, a West Glamorgan music service for over 40
years, where we faced one local authority prepared to fund it, and
the other local authority was not in a position to fund. Therefore,
in September 2016, we disaggregated and formed two new music
services, one Swansea and one NPT. The delivery itself we’ve
tried to make as smooth as possible—the transition.
It’s been a great success on our end at the moment.
We’ve managed to keep Swansea alive as well. I was speaking
to the manager yesterday. We don’t know what the future
holds, obviously, but the funding, or the lack of funding, is the
biggest problem.
|
[174] Lee
Waters: The report recommended working across local
authorities, but didn’t specify a particular model, as they
have in England. Do you think that that flexible model is proving
in the interim to be the right course of action?
|
[175] Ms
Coulthard: No. You can’t work in partnership with other
local authority music services when they’ve got funding and
you don’t. So, we’re not on a level playing field. Our
nearest local authority has still got £0.5 million funding
and we’ve got zero, so, therefore, they can offer things that
we can’t do, even though we might have the expertise to do
it. So, if we’re not all even in the first place, all the
partnership will do is give business to other music services.
|
11:15
|
[176] Lee
Waters: So, you’d prefer a more prescriptive model, would
you, a more consistent model?
|
[177] Ms
Coulthard: I’d like a more consistent model, yes,
possibly based around regional consortia.
|
[178] Lee
Waters: Okay, because the national plan for creative learning
set out details for consortia, regional arts and education
networks.
|
[179] Ms
Coulthard: That’s right.
|
[180] Lee
Waters: Can you tell us what’s happening with them?
|
[181] Ms
Coulthard: There’s been no engagement particularly with
us.
|
[182] Lee
Waters: So, they’ve been established.
|
[183] Ms
Coulthard: Yes.
|
[184] Lee
Waters: But they’re not engaging with music services.
|
[185] Ms
Coulthard: No.
|
[186] Lee
Waters: And do you have a sense of why that is?
|
[187] Ms
Coulthard: No.
|
[188] Lee
Waters: Does anybody have a sense of why that is?
|
[189] Mr
Napieralla: Perhaps I can give some clarity to that. I
don’t want to be historically hysterical, but I think you
need to go back to the context in which we carried out the music
services report. Because, obviously, there was no extra funding
coming from Welsh Government for music services—at the time,
local authorities were facing quite stringent cuts and were having
to reprioritise services and, obviously, music services were caught
up in that mix. Along comes a—I don’t know whether I
can say a deal, but certainly a joint arrangement between two
Ministers that they would support the arts, and the arts and
creative learning plan was born. Now, in itself, it was an
excellent idea but, obviously, there was a false impression from
the educational community, particularly amongst my colleague
directors at the time, that some of that money could be utilised
to, if you like, save music services. But it became clear from the
outset that that was ring-fenced for the arts and creative learning
plan. Meritorious as it is, I can see why it hasn’t had any
great effect on music services. Although there are aspects of that
that would encourage children and young people, particularly those
perhaps in more deprived areas, to actually experience music
through performance and through experiencing performances, it has
no—as colleagues were saying—bearing on music services
at all. It is quite successful I understand. There are lead
creative schools throughout Wales now and the arts and creative
learning plan, I think, is in its third tranche and there’s
no shortage of schools applying to be on that scheme, but
it’s completely separate to the funding or indeed the
continued development, or lack of development, as my colleagues
would probably point out, of music services in Wales.
|
[190] Lee
Waters: So, in terms of music education—just if I can
summarise what we’ve been hearing so far—there’s
clearly a funding problem, there’s also a structural problem
and, I guess, implied in all of that is a leadership problem. I
wonder if you could tell us why, when you did your report, you
decided not to recommend a particular model of the hubs.
|
[191] Mr
Napieralla: Well, we were constrained because of the lack of
funding, we weren’t constrained by lack of will. There was
tremendous enthusiasm from people around the table. The people we
took evidence from were—there was quite a variety in their
quality of responses. Some you’ve already heard from,
I’m sure, were extremely traditional in their approach and
were only really interested in the top of the pyramid. I felt that
some of our work at national level was paying lip service to what
was actually going on in communities and certainly not supportive
of these guys. I suppose I can sum it up—you know, I can
possibly say some things that they can’t—but, to me,
local authority music services can be put into four categories. It
might be useful for you just to explore that for a moment.
|
[192] The first
category is those that don’t really want to promote music
services to any great degree: baseline the funding, delegate it to
schools and basically say, ‘Right, up to you—get on
with it.’ Then it becomes the premise for individual
headteachers to prioritise within their own community. That’s
great in some communities, because where you have a true community
school that looks after all its pupils and gives a range of
opportunities whatever a pupil’s background, very often
headteachers invest more because they see music and the arts as a
way of actually contributing to pupils’ health and
well-being—healthy pupils, pupils who are active, pupils who
are participating are generally those pupils that would come
through and actually achieve academically.
|
[193] There are other
authorities that will provide the minimum because of the cutbacks
they’re facing, but they will expect the music services to
carry on and deliver the service as they’ve always delivered
it. There are others who collaborate in a joint service, and they
think the job is done and they can leave it to the joint service to
get on with it. Increasingly, those types of arrangements have
fallen apart. And then there are other authorities that prefer to,
perhaps, be a little bit more entrepreneurial and look at
arm’s-length models of delivery, and provide base
funding.
|
[194] You can judge
for yourselves why it was very difficult in that context to come up
with not so much a one-size-fits-all model, but some
recommendations for models and delivery. I think there are a number
of issues. The issues that are not being addressed in that system,
the conditions of service of staff, for example, the
quality—how do you know that your music service is really
hitting the button? Yes, you might be providing quite a number of
pupils for regional and national ensembles, but how do you know
that the quality of delivery on the ground is inclusive, is of a
high quality, is encouraging more and more parents to be involved,
and the community involved—those people in the community who
are interested in music? Where is the flexibility versus
traditional modes of working? In a flexible situation, you’re
much more able to address the conditions of the staff. And there
is, generally, a lack of will to let go of traditional models and
find alternative models of delivery that could well work. But the
key is to actually have people who know what they’re doing to
come up with those suggestions in Wales. So, we were quite
constrained, as a group, really, in that context, and we would love
to have done more, but we had six meetings, so you can see the
constraints we were under.
|
[195] Bethan
Jenkins: Emma.
|
[196] Ms
Coulthard: I just want to highlight what we’ve been doing
in Cardiff: we’ve been sailing the civic entrepreneur ship
since 2013. We’ve taken an innovative approach. We’ve
found things that work and we’re constrained in the ability
to roll them out and to share best practice because, as my
colleague was saying, some headteachers are real champions.
We’ve got the headteacher at Baden Powell Primary
School—I don’t know if any of you saw the article on
Wales Today; I did an interview there. And that school
invests £10,000 a year in music. Every child learns an
instrument. It’s not even visible in the kind of questions
and benchmarking you’re looking at, because none of those
children will get into the national ensembles, because we can give
them an experience at school, but there’s no funding to give
the talented ones or the ones who want to go further any further
input whatsoever. So, it’s the invisible children.
|
[197] I got money from
John Lewis about five years ago to do Splott kids symphony, and
that was fun. We’re in all the special schools, but
that’s not reflected in there. I’ve had to literally
crowdfund my own job for 10 years—just talking to
headteachers, and there’s a willingness, but the problem is
it’s uneven. So, you’ll get some stunning examples of
best practice: at Herbert Thompson Primary School in Ely and Baden
Powell, every child is playing an instrument. You don’t know
about it, because we’ve got no way of promoting it. We
can’t afford to hire venues. We put on concerts in St
David’s Hall, and people think, ‘We’ll get all
the children in’, but their parents can’t afford
tickets. It’s stuff like that.
|
[198] The whole
paradigm I think needs to be reworked. The expertise is there.
We’re lucky, we’ve got a stunning workforce in Cardiff.
We’ve got the conservatoire at the university and fantastic
people, but we need to start looking at measuring different things
in terms of success and celebrating everybody’s musicianship,
whether they’re going to be a grade 5 violinist, or whether
it’s a child in Ty Gwyn School who is pressing an iPad, or
whether it’s a looked-after child who feels good about
themselves for a change. Those are all measures. And, I think,
tying in with the excellent future generations document and the
whole well-being and Donaldson—I’ve cross-referenced
what we do with Donaldson: children feeling part of Wales, part of
the community; citizens. It’s all much bigger stuff than
the—and I’m not knocking, of course, the proud history
we have of youth orchestras, they’re wonderful. Our youth
orchestra went to Venice last year. They haven’t been
affected. We’ve got 22 ensembles. There are 149 children in
our junior orchestra and three of them are on free school
meals.
|
[199] Lee
Waters: Could I—? There’s a lot, and I’m sure
my colleagues will want to explore that—
|
[200] Ms
Coulthard: I know; I’m sorry.
|
[201] Lee
Waters: But, just briefly, the issue of the
inconsistency—. I think the task and finish group’s
report pointed out there were no specific performance measures in
place, and you recommended that, within two years, local
authorities should work with schools and governing bodies to adopt
terms of reference for a greater standardisation of music services
in schools. We’re halfway through that timeline that you
established for terms of reference to be adopted in each school. Do
you have any sense of whether progress has been made?
|
[202] Mr
Napieralla: I’ve got some sense that the national music
group, which tended to operate on its own, independently of
directors, who, very often, if not holding the purse strings,
certainly hold influence with their members—. And I
understand that CAGAC has been reformed and reconstituted under
ADEW, but, again, they’re relying on the individual goodwill
of members of that group to actually take forward some of the
recommendations, rather than providing some resources for the group
to actually perhaps second one or two of their members to actually
take the work forward.
|
[203] I understand
that there has been, via the WLGA, an audit of the different
models. But, hey, you know, we find out the different
models—what are the next steps? I don’t see anything
coming forward in terms of the next steps and I certainly
haven’t seen a great deal of work in linking the work of
music services to the new curriculum and the expectations on health
and well-being that the Government has.
|
[204] The terms of
reference could be regarded by some as outmoded because
they’re traditional, but at least they do set a quality
standard for the delivery of music for you to assess yourself
against. What I didn’t see and haven’t seen in many
places, even my own—. And I have to pay tribute to Wayne,
because, obviously, I was privileged to be director overseeing a
joint service and a service that did attempt to be inclusive and
certainly did attempt to address conditions of service of staff.
Also, the people who left us to pursue fantastic careers apart from
music, when they were training for those careers, and even when
they were in the jobs, would come back and help out in the music
service. That, I think, showed true community spirit.
|
[205] But, in terms of
a consistent approach, I think we’re still where we were two
years ago. I certainly haven’t seen any move to look at being
more entrepreneurial, more realistic, in the current financial
climate and perhaps freeing up services—yes, setting them a
baseline, but freeing up. Even in those services that have
maintained their funding, I didn’t see, during this review,
and I certainly haven’t seen it since, and I—. As some
of you will probably know, my role in Welsh Government was to
co-ordinate the recovery of those authorities that were in special
measures and in Estyn monitoring. Okay, thankfully, they came out,
but, when I was going around Wales, I certainly didn’t see
any evidence of this agenda being addressed in any particular way.
Even in those authorities where they’d maintained the
funding, there certainly wasn’t any true review of quality
standards, performance management of staff—you know, that
business of how do you know your service is providing quality and
is truly inclusive.
|
[206] Lee
Waters: Thank you.
|
[207] Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy.
|
[208] Jeremy
Miles: Thank you. The picture that’s being painted,
really, is one of fragmentation in many ways, actually. We’ve
looked at the local authority level decision making, if I can put
it like that, but there’s also the school level, isn’t
there, where individual schools decide whether or not to buy into
the service from a SLA basis. And there is presumably a tipping
point beyond which if there are not enough schools signing up then
you’ve got questions of resilience of the overall service, I
would expect. Could you elaborate a little bit about how that works
in practice and what the risks are? The second aspect, and you
might want to choose to deliver them together, is the fragmentation
of the workforce, if I can put it like that—the loss of
tutors and teachers to other music agencies and what that does to
the resilience of the service generally.
|
11:30
|
[209] Mr
Pedrick: The structure is fragmented and, again, it’s
because of the differential in funding. You’re at the
discretion of so many people is what I’ve found. Because
I’m new to this; I only started at the Neath Port Talbot
service in September, so we’re quite new, although I’ve
been in the West Glamorgan service for nearly 20 years. So,
I’ve been surprised at the number of people in that line
where you come from the councillors, the first point, then where
Karl was, as director of education, it comes down to the head of
participation, then the heads of the schools, and, of course, their
budgets have been affected. As Karl rightly pointed out, it’s
at the discretion of the different heads and how they view music
and value music generally within their school and what it brings to
their pupils.
|
[210] I’m in a
very fortunate position where we are being funded. We’ve been
supported very well by Neath Port Talbot. We have brought in
performance management levels. The first thing I did was appoint
two team leaders. They are now interviewing staff; they are going
to do observations on staff. If we haven’t got the funding
for that, we can’t do it. So, the quality assurance
isn’t there; you can’t guarantee that what our staff
are delivering—unless we can go out there and see it for
ourselves, we can’t guarantee the quality of services that
the heads are paying for. That’s one thing.
|
[211] Yes, we can look
at our top-end players who come into the county—orchestras,
county bands—and I’m of the same feeling as Emma; I
think it’s more to do with what we’re lacking as the
total inclusion—I think that’s the main point from
me—in certain areas. Without the proper funding and those
funds being put to one side for free school meals children—.
For instance, we have a policy where free school meals children
don’t pay for centres; they don’t pay to attend any
centres. I can’t control that in the school, though,
that’s up to the head, and, if the head decides to go for the
pupil deprivation grant to pay for the tuition of the child, that
is entirely up to them. We have no control over that. We’d
like that to be in our control, obviously; we’d like to tap
into it, and we’d like the whole school to have some form of
music.
|
[212] Jeremy
Miles: Could you just comment as well on the issue for schools
that don’t buy into a service? I know that isn’t the
case within NPT, but there are other schools not far away for which
it will be the case. They then contract with separate music
agencies to deliver that service—is that true?
|
[213] Mr
Pedrick: It’s a worry. That’s a worry for us as a
service as well, because it’s not only within the school day.
Our job doesn’t finish in the school day. We run music
centres, we run the training-level brass bands and orchestras and
wind bands. That goes up to the county bands. Now, if private
enterprise comes in, they’re profit-making, which we are not,
obviously. Do the children get the right—? Again, do they get
value for money in the schools as far as do the children learn the
right instruments? Are there traditional instruments? Do they only
learn—not that I’m saying there’s anything wrong
with a recorder or a ukulele, but is that it? Is that the top of
it? Do they just do it for year 4, 5, 6, and then don’t go
any further? We take children through Trinity/ABRSM exams, get them
into the six counties orchestras and bands, and then up to the
national orchestras and bands.
|
[214] But can I come
back to what you said about the quality of the staff as well? I
think the biggest worry for me as an employer is losing—. If
we don’t value music as a subject totally in Wales, our best
musicians and quality teachers, who have a passion for teaching,
will leave, because they don’t think their job is safe. There
is no safety now even in working for local authorities within music
services. If the funding can be cut from, we’ll say
£300,000 in one year and then suddenly down to nothing in the
following year without any warning—. If you’re told to
lose £50,000 or £60,000 a year, you can try and adapt
the business to do that, but when you’re told within six
months, with 54 or 55 employees, that that funding is cut
completely, you’re in big trouble to hang on to your quality
staff as well. We will lose very, very dedicated and talented
people.
|
[215] Jeremy
Miles: Where will they go? When that happens, do they go and do
something totally different, or do they go—?
|
[216] Mr
Pedrick: Well, a lot of them are qualified teachers and are
going back into the classroom if jobs come up, and some of them go
back and play professionally. It’s as simple as that.
|
[217] Bethan
Jenkins: Emma.
|
[218] Ms
Archer: Can we—? Sorry, I was just looking at the
beginning of the question again. Can you remind me—? There
were three different aspects to your question.
|
[219] Jeremy
Miles: There were two points that I was asking in the question.
The first was really about that nature of individual schools buying
in the service, and there’s, presumably, a critical mass
beneath which there’s a vulnerability issue, and the second
was the point we’ve been exploring about workforce
fragmentation, if you like.
|
[220] Ms
Coulthard: Both of those things have happened to us. The
schools within Cardiff and Vale of Glamorgan, there are no
service-level agreements with any of them. They don’t have to
have us, and I discovered—. I’ve been head of service
for two years, I was head of music development before that—we
wish that was still there. We had a school in June, a new head of
music took over, got rid of our music service, got in a private
service and got rid of all our staff, and there was nothing I could
do to protect them. We lost £10,000-worth of business
overnight, and there was nothing I could do. And I’m being
measured on how many hours I sell to schools. There’s no
guarantee that private provider is there in the interests of the
children—they might be; we know it’s an open
thing—but teachers are making decisions based on money, based
on things like what’s convenient, or that provider has a
better website than you. There’s no set quality control,
there’s no protection, and because we’re in Cardiff
we’ve got competition all over the place.
|
[221] We’ve got
graduates coming up setting up independent music services, and they
will go into all the better-off areas where the—I hate the
term ‘low-hanging fruit’, but what happens then is you
over-serve the top 5 per cent. Because it’s not in
anybody’s interest to go to—. I’m covering flute
teaching in St Brides in the vale at the moment; it takes an hour
to get there each way, for half an hour’s teaching.
It’s not in anybody’s incentive in a private company to
go to a small school. It’s not in anybody’s incentive
to go to a school where most of the parents can’t afford to
pay. So, that’s already—. One of the reasons I’m
so glad that we did hang on and stay with Cardiff Council was at
least there’s that guarantee that we’re there for
everybody; we have that ethos of public sector that I think would
be a tragedy if we lost. If you put all your staff out to being
self-employed and hourly-paid, they’re going to negotiate
with the schools in better-off areas first.
|
[222] Jeremy
Miles: But can you just develop that point that Wayne Pedrick
was mentioning about the additional out-of-hours, if I can put it
like that, work that tutors do, presumably to maintain, as you
said, community-level activity, but also the county-wide ensembles
and that sort of thing? How does that play into the model that
you’re describing now?
|
[223] Ms
Coulthard: We have a full complement of out-of-hours ensembles,
as we always did. We’re currently in the Friary, so, six days
a week we’ve got 900 children coming in for the bands and
orchestras. They pay a modest fee; those cover themselves.
They’re doing fine.
|
[224] Jeremy
Miles: But they’re obviously not staffed by people who
are doing the freelance individual deals with schools, are
they?
|
[225] Ms
Coultard: None of our staff are freelance, they’re
hourly-paid employees, but, yes, they are, there’s a mixture,
so some of them are working in a school and then conducting in the
evening.
|
[226] Jeremy
Miles: Right. The picture I have in my mind is, if it’s
right about this fragmentation, you’ve got schools opting in
to buying individual contracts with private providers, and those
providers obviously aren’t providing the additional
county-wide ensemble support, because that’s their—
|
[227] Ms
Coulthard: Yes, but—
|
[228] Jeremy
Miles: Yes they are, or yes they’re not?
|
[229] Ms
Coulthard: They’re not providing the same opportunities,
but those children can still access our ensembles, because we
can’t enforce restrictions on ‘only if you come to us
can you access our ensembles’, because that would hit
equality of access. And, also, if a school chooses not to have us
in, we can’t then penalise their children and tell them they
can’t come to the ensemble, because it wasn’t the
children’s decision that the school doesn’t buy us in.
It’s really a very, very important point. We had a school
where—. A few years ago it used to be the rule that you had
to buy into the local authority music service to access the
ensembles. We had a child apply to join one of our choirs, the
school didn’t buy in to the service, and it went right to
cabinet, because the parent was on the council, and that child was
told they can’t come because the school doesn’t buy in,
and that was fought. So, we can’t do that now.
|
[230] Jeremy
Miles: That’s a very important principle, but
there’s also the issue, isn’t there, of how you
resource and staff the ensemble-level work. And that’s the
point I’m trying to get out—so, the more the workforce
fragments, and the more it becomes a freelance private provider
model, the less likely it is that you’re going to be able to
staff an ensemble at a county level, because they’re not
doing the added extras.
|
[231] Ms
Coulthard: No, the ensembles are all self-funding, so they pay
a small fee and that covers the cost of staffing them. We’re
not supporting them through revenue from parents.
|
[232] Mr
Pedrick: That’s not the case.
|
[233] Jeremy
Miles: Right.
|
[234] Mr
Pedrick: That’s not the case in West Glamorgan.
|
[235] Ms
Coulthard: I think we’re the only ones.
|
[236] Mr
Pedrick: Although we had this split in September, we do meet in
after-school activities still as West Glamorgan. Again, they pay a
fee—it’s £60 a year at the moment—and our
teachers are on teachers’ pay and conditions, they’re
on contract, and they work two hours a week in centres as part of
their directed time. So, they work for free, basically, as part of
their contract. That is a worry for us as well, because we
haven’t had as many instrumental lessons by private firms
coming to Swansea Neath Port Talbot yet. Again, we’re going
have this problem: how much do we charge the people that we
don’t teach in the working day? Do they pay more than the
children whose schools are in a service level agreement? This is
something new to us, and really, in principle, why should our staff
work for free to teach people that somebody else is making a profit
out of teaching in the day? So it does throw up a mass of issues,
it’s a lot of issues, but by keeping the ensembles
together—Karen Jenkins and I fought for this—we need
each other. We’re close neighbours, we’ve always worked
as West Glamorgan, we’ve managed to get the working day
sorted, and staff have moved over from one county to another and
stay there, not working cross-county. But in the centres we still
work cross-county in certain areas, because someone may be more of
an expert with the wind orchestra, which is based in Swansea, and
somebody else, one of the Swansea staff, is with me in the Neath
Port Talbot area as a brass band player. He’s a principal
player with Cory Band, so his strength is the brass band; so he
comes across and vice versa. So we still have got that at the
moment. But again, with the funding issue, I don’t know if
one group of children will have to pay more than a group of
children where we are being funded, in Neath Port Talbot. These are
things that will come up in the next 12 months.
|
[237] Bethan
Jenkins: So Swansea are still paying for the ensemble.
|
[238] Mr
Pedrick: Sorry?
|
[239] Bethan
Jenkins: Swansea council are still paying for the ensemble
element for West Glam to still exist or—
|
[240] Mr
Pedrick: It’s within the costs of—. They’ve
raised the cost to the schools, so it’s within that, and they
have to budget for it. It has to be cost neutral for the music
service. So that’s why I’m saying it possibly is;
I’m not saying that it is. I don’t know their business
at the moment, but there’s a possibility it may go up to make
it cost neutral. We put transport on as well, which is another
massive cost, because they are spread so widely. An added cost is
the transport cost as well. But this is an inclusion thing for me,
on a personal level, because we never had a coach coming from Port
Talbot to come up to Pontardawe. We’ve put that on.
That’s £100 a week to put a coach on. And if you charge
for it, some of those children won’t come. They will just not
be able to access it.
|
[241] Bethan
Jenkins: Diolch. Dai.
|
[242]
Dai Lloyd: Wel, mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r cwestiynau
roeddwn i eisiau eu gofyn wedi cael eu hateb. Rydym ni wedi cael
disgrifiad manwl o’r heriau a beth sy’n digwydd ar hyn
bryd. Ar ddiwedd y dydd, rydym ni, fel pwyllgor, yn mynd i
gynhyrchu adroddiad ac rydym ni eisiau grŵp o argymhellion.
Felly i gyrraedd y man ideal yna rydych chi’n ei
ddisgrifio o bob disgybl yn y bôn yn gallu cael mynediad i
gael addysg gerddorol, beth sydd angen ei wneud? Ai dim ond mater o
ariannu yw e? Ynteu a oes yna bethau eraill sydd angen eu gwneud i
sicrhau eich agenda chi? Ac rwy’n cytuno’n gyfan gwbl
fod pob plentyn o leiaf yn haeddu cael y cyfle i gael mynediad at
addysg gerddorol.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Well, most of the questions that I wanted to ask have
been answered. And we’ve had a detailed description of the
challenges and what’s happening at present. Now, at the end
of the day, as a committee, we’re going to produce a report
and we would like a set of recommendations. So, to reach that ideal
point that you describe, where every pupil basically can have
access to musical education, what needs to be done? Is it only a
matter of funding? Or are there other things that need to be done
to achieve your agenda? And I wholeheartedly agree that every child
deserves the opportunity to access music education.
|
[243] Ms
Coulthard: I got
most of that, but not all. You’re looking at what models, and
what we need to be looking at in terms of—
|
[244] Dai
Lloyd: I was basically agreeing with what you were saying, but
basically, rather than leaving it as a description of what happens,
or what’s happening, or what’s happened, what can we do
about it in terms of recommendations from this committee?
|
[245] Mr
Napieralla: Do you want to go first?
|
[246] Ms
Coulthard: Do
you want to start? I think we should all—.
|
[247] Mr
Napieralla: Well, it depends how revolutionary you guys want to
be really.
|
[248] Dai
Lloyd: We can be revolutionary. [Laughter.]
|
[249] Mr
Napieralla: Looking at the characters around the table, I agree
with that.
|
[250] Bethan
Jenkins: We’re not shy; we’re not shy.
|
[251] Mr
Napieralla: But realistically speaking, there’s a massive
opportunity given the new relationship that has to be
formed—new in many cases, I would say, given the churn, and
certainly a new situation in local government post May. There will
need to be, I would have thought, a building of new relationships
between the Welsh Government and each authority. There is a
precedent, of course, in terms of setting high expectations
nationally—just by setting higher expectations for pupil
performance and the standards of schools in our country. We have
the same number of schools as Hampshire and, coming back to that
one, surely we can be much more consistent as a nation. We found,
didn’t we, that local authorities couldn’t cut the
mustard when it came to improving schools?
|
11:45
|
[252] Therefore, we
had an arrangement where Welsh Government insisted that, if local
authorities were going to remain in control of schools, and
therefore education, then that needed to be sorted, and hence we
had the consortia put on a much firmer footing. The advisers, many
of whom certainly didn’t have any recent or relevant
experience in terms of either pupil performance or schools
performance, were more or less eradicated—gradually in some
places, drastically in others. A set of standards, national
standards, for those challenge advisers was devised, implemented
and performance managed. Surely there’s a precedent there for
Welsh Government to discuss with local government post May. So, to
me, it’s setting high expectations, but it’s also
looking at the models of delivery and making sure that there is
consistent application, and if it’s time limited or it
doesn’t work, then obviously the funding needs to be brought
into the centre and we need to look at it consistently, either in
the region or, I would say, we’re small enough to look at it
nationally, in the way in which we’re looking at the national
ensembles.
|
[253]
Dai Lloyd: Okay.
|
[254]
Ms Coulthard: You said to be ambitious.
|
[255]
Dai Lloyd: Yes.
|
[256]
Ms Coulthard: I think there needs to be a paradigm shift in music
services and we need to be clear on what a music service is and
what it’s for, and whether you think it’s training a
small group of people to go into the profession, which I feel is
the equivalent of asking the Royal Ballet to run your PE
department.
|
[257]
I think a broad definition would be the
meeting of musical needs and allowing children to discover and
celebrate their musicianship. As we know about equal opportunities,
it doesn’t mean giving everybody the same thing. So, for some
children, improving school music will be enough. Working with music
services with our expertise, one of our greatest areas of success
is partnering with schools on their school improvement plan, using
things like the Donaldson aspirations as a guideline, and, with all
that, working with teachers to give them the confidence to teach
better on a consistent level.
|
[258]
The good thing about our presence in
schools—. I mean, Baden Powell Primary School and Herbert
Thompson Primary School, we’re in there three or four hours a
week teaching all of the key stage 2. All of those children are
doing recorders and ukuleles and singing. I started on the recorder
and then became a professional musician because I was spotted. It
was enough to see which children would benefit from
more.
|
[259]
The trouble with—I know I made a
face when you said ‘hubs’; I think there should be a
hub cap on that, on the Severn bridge—the hub model
isn’t consistent. It isn’t anything except—.
It’s just another word for partnership, and it’s
totally dependent on the partners involved. It doesn’t solve
everything. There are huge—. So, I was the Welsh rep for the
National Association for Music Education for seven years, and you
go up to England now and they’ve got the same problems we do.
Because unless you know what it is you’re trying to achieve,
it doesn’t matter what you throw at it, you won’t get
there.
|
[260]
So, I’d like to see really good
school music. That is definitely part of Donaldson. I think schools
will buy into that. The reason we generated £300,000 from
schools in 2013 was because we delivered what helped them to
achieve their ambitions for their children, rather than four
children doing the violin, which doesn’t have an impact on
the school. If it isn’t in the interests of that stakeholder,
why should they invest? So, that’s worked. From there then
you can see the children that would benefit from more focused
provision, so, your small-group teaching, and from then then you
can scholarship the ones that need it. Some of those children will
have the means to do that independently and some
won’t.
|
[261] What I wouldn’t like to see is free—. I
was on the Nottingham panel when wider opportunities came in. I
worked for Nottingham City Musical Futures and Wider Opportunities.
In fact, I went to—. Who brought that in? Estelle Morris,
when she spoke about that. The problem with that one was it was
providing a free instrument for every single child in year 3. So
you ended up with 20,000 very cheap clarinets that fell apart and
nowhere to put them, or very strange ensembles. Again, it was based
on what that particular music service person’s favourite bag
was. When we go into schools now the headteacher will say,
‘We won’t have violin because I don’t like
it’, or ‘We won’t have guitar because
they’ll all give up their orchestra.’ Is that for us to
say, or is it for us to say, ‘Here’s music, children,
let’s work in partnership with the wonderful orchestras and
choirs and rock bands’? We’ve neglected rock and pop at
our peril. My highest earning member of staff did not come from an
orchestral background. He’s a rock guitarist, and he’s
been phenomenal in the influence he’s had. Just to give
children the broader, ‘This is what’s out there’,
work with the curriculum so that they’re using the curriculum
time to know more about music in general, but not give everybody
exactly the same because not everybody—. It’s
like asking a fish to climb a tree. You all know that one,
don’t you? Anyway, that would be my ambition for it.
|
[262]
Bethan Jenkins:
Diolch. Wayne.
|
[263] Mr
Pedrick: Along the same lines, actually. [Laughter.] We
do think the same. That’s the thing. As part of the CAGAC
group, we came up with a response to the report from Karl. We all
want the same. It was plain for me to see. It was my first meeting,
and straight away, we were like-minded people. Every manager there
wanted inclusion, and wanted their music service to thrive,
obviously, but to have that to thrive, you have to have the schools
taking the music service into their schools and helping. For me,
personally, the Donaldson report is great, but the only way I think
heads will take notice of it is if Estyn makes that a more
important part of the school inspections. We’ll soon see them
buying music in then. Sorry; I know that I’m being
sceptical—
|
[264] Dai
Lloyd: No, no; it sounds like a recommendation.
|
[265] Mr
Pedrick: Well, yes. Why not? For me, personally, that would
work. But inclusion is huge for me. I come from an industrial
background. I’ve come into teaching very late and did a
degree at 40. So, brass bands were the thing for me, and I played
with my local brass band. I was taught by miners—two miners
who were a massive influence on my life. I’ve heard so many
teachers, and classroom teachers as well—. We had a
retirement function on Saturday, and one of the heads of music in
one of my biggest comprehensive schools named a teacher, who has
passed away now, unfortunately, who was a huge influence on his
life. He said, ‘That man saved me.’ To have one person
say that, there must be hundreds of thousands of people who can say
that. So, the inclusion part is very, very important, and I think
that’s what we need to do—the grass roots.
|
[266] If we’re
going to charge children per lesson and they can’t afford it,
then we charge for the orchestra or band or whatever they go to
after school and it’s too expensive and they can’t
afford it, we become elitist. Wales is the land of song,
apparently, but when is that going to stop? It’s up to us,
really. Owain Arwel Hughes says there’s a crisis. I
don’t think we know there’s a crisis yet. We will see
the crisis in five to 10 years’ time. If the numbers at the
top of our pyramid drop now, which it look as if they’re
starting to, what’s it going to be like in 10 years’
time? We are responsible—all of us in this room are
responsible—for making sure that it doesn’t happen.
|
[267] Dai
Lloyd: Diolch yn fawr.
|
[268]
Bethan Jenkins:
Suzy, ar gyllido.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Suzy, on funding.
|
[269] Suzy
Davies: Yes. Actually, you’ve answered quite a lot of my
questions, so I want to ask you these instead, if that’s
okay. I think it was you, Karl—you mentioned the lack of will
to let go of traditional models. What I picked up from all your
evidence is that the key decision makers need to be enthused and
value music. I wondered what you’re able to tell me about the
effect of Dai Smith’s report and the Kay Andrews report on
how leaders in schools and councils are thinking about the arts
generally, but specifically music, and why so few of them seem to
have taken that up. You’ve obviously got people in mind.
|
[270] Mr
Napieralla: I think schools have really embraced the plan;
there’s a slow beginning, but they’ve really embraced
the arts and creative learning plan. If we were to have been really
strategic before that plan was introduced, or even thought about,
then the whole business of a music plan for Wales should have been
part of that. There was a tremendous amount of will from the Welsh
Government—and funding—to launch that and to sustain it
over three to five years, I believe. A similar thing would have
been—. Well, not a similar thing, but to have been really
inclusive and to have tried to incorporate music and the
opportunities for experience in music to whatever level in Wales, I
thought that was a bit of a missed opportunity, because here were
we, looking at music services, and over there, that was what
happened. I happened to be on that working party as well. In my
position even then, I couldn’t bring the two of them together
other than to say—. Some people would say,
‘There’s a bit of money in this for them to experience
music performance, not to actually play, but to go and see an
orchestra.’ So, you can buy a bus, or you can hire a bus, and
go up to the Wales Millennium Centre with your kids, which is great
stuff, but then there’s no provision back at school. So, for
me—
|
[271] Suzy Davies: Well, that’s it, if it
creates appetite, that appetite can’t be—
|
[272] Mr
Napieralla: Yes; it wasn’t joined up. And the other thing
we talked about before coming in, you know, is that even the
non-traditionalists, and certainly the CAGAC group that I dealt
with, which is different now—. They were really
intent—and I was convinced, but I’ve been convinced in
other ways—why are we concentrating on the pyramid? England
soccer concentrated on the pyramid; they’ve not won anything
since 1966. [Laughter.] [Inaudible.]—and
I’m a Manchester United fan. But the fact of the matter is by
concentrating on the pyramid, what you seem to think about is,
‘Get as many people participating in school music’ and
so on, but if it’s not quality, then the people
don’t—. We need to get back to basics—so,
quality, and then build the provision around that quality.
I’m sorry to my colleagues and former
friends—I’ll probably get no work from them
now—in the Welsh Local Government Association who are not
going to be happy with this, but if authorities can’t cut the
mustard then I think you’ve got to grasp hold of it
centrally. And there are models of service delivery that can
work.
|
[273]
Suzy Davies: That’s right. You’ve given us some very
good examples. Was there anything you wanted to add?
|
[274]
Ms Coulthard: Can I pick up on the pyramid thing? I wrote an
article that said that a pyramid is a tomb and it is a hierarchy
that celebrates and gives preferential treatment to certain people
over others. That’s not terribly easy to sell to a
headteacher. It was a real barrier that headteachers’
perceptions of music services were based on the old model, because
that’s what was in place when they were in school. So, we
lost a lot of schools, particularly secondary schools, with the
funding cut, because they saw music services as something that only
cares about certain children. So, it was really detrimental in
terms of PR. So, I had to go back and say, ‘No, no,
we’re meeting everybody’s musical needs and we’re
providing equivalent experiences that are not dependent on that
child having a huge amount of resources at home’, which is
what you need to—.
|
[275]
Suzy Davies: And in that message—and this is actually my
second question, so I’ll keep it nice and short, if
that’s okay—other arts disciplines could be making
exactly the same arguments as you. We talk about lack of money,
which I completely accept. Is that lack of money impacting on the
key decision makers about which art forms, if I can put it like
that, they’re championing, or do they see the arts as a
whole?
|
[276]
Ms Coulthard: They don’t see the arts as a whole. The
on-the-ground experience I’ve had with schools is that there
has been a really good push towards creativity. I think the Lead
Creative Schools thing has been excellent at getting that appetite,
but they don’t see music as creative. They see music services
as Santa’s little helpers doing what they’re told and
following a stick.
|
[277]
Suzy Davies: Really?
|
[278]
Ms Coulthard: Yes. Their perception of music and music
services—the Venn diagram between that and the Lead Creative
Schools—. It’s that bit in the middle. I’m
currently involved in an Erasmus+ project around creativity. I did
two days’ training with 50 teachers from Spain and Romania,
and I’m going to be going out to work with them. It’s
about mapping music teaching onto the creative idea, because they
don’t perceive music as part of the generic ‘Inspire
kids by making a pot in front of them’ thing. That’s
not meant to be derogatory. They don’t see it in the same
way.
|
[279]
Suzy Davies: Does that ring bells with you? Sorry, I don’t
want to expand it. In 140 characters or less.
|
[280]
Mr Napieralla: I have to disagree a little bit, because one of the
things—. Having been involved across the world on behalf of
Welsh Government, my own authority, ADEW and the WLGA, one of the
things we come back to in Wales—and Wayne hit it—is
that Wales is the land of song. Well, Wales is not just the land of
song; it’s the land of performance. If you look at,
traditionally, the performance opportunities that young people have
in our schools, they’re second to none, still, across the
world. Despite all the constraints and despite all the financial
cuts and pressures, that is where the creativity of music services,
arts and drama comes together, and that’s still there. I
didn’t see in my authority—. As to the challenges that
we’ve had, I didn’t see—I don’t know
whether Wayne feels the same—but I didn’t see a
tail-off in that performance despite what was going on with the
music service. I found that music professionals from the service
were eager to help with the performances right through the
different key stages. For the pupils, it was truly inclusive in
terms of their opportunities to perform. I think that’s a
good basis for taking that forward.
|
[281] Mr Pedrick: If I
can just answer the first question quickly, I’m not trying to
say that all or the majority of the heads look at music as just a
line on their budgets—some do, obviously—just a line on
their budget that they have to pay for. My experience is that a lot
of them do value music as a creative art in the school and
what it brings to the school. The eisteddfodau—where would we
be without the music service going in? Because most of the
conducting and tutoring for the orchestras or bands competing in
the eisteddfod is done by the peripatetic who comes into that
school. So, they do value it, and they do see it, but not all of
them, and that’s the problem.
|
12:00
|
[282]
Suzy Davies: This goes back to fragmentation, anyway, but thank
you for that. Sorry, Bethan.
|
[283]
Bethan Jenkins:
That’s fine. We’re going to
end now. We’ll send you some questions on the best practice
and sharing of best practice, if that’s okay, so you can
respond to us in written evidence. But thank you for coming in
today, and I’m sure you’ll take note of all the other
pieces of evidence that we take as part of the inquiry. Thank you;
we value your contribution.
|
Papurau i'w Nodi
Papers to Note
|
[284]
Bethan Jenkins:
Eitem 4: papurau i’w nodi.
Papur 1: llythyr at y Cadeirydd gan y Llywydd o ran
Senedd@Casnewydd; a hefyd wedyn papur 2, ymateb gan Ysgrifennydd y
Cabinet dros yr Economi a’r Seilwaith ar Cymru Hanesyddol. A
oes unrhyw gwestiynau ar y papurau hynny? Na. Grêt.
Diolch.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Item 4 is papers to note. The first paper is a letter
to the Chair from the Presiding Officer about Senedd@Newport; and
paper 2 is a reply from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and
Infrastructure on Historic Wales. Are there any questions on those
papers? No. I see there are none. Great.
|
12:01
|
Cynnig o dan
Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the
Public
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd ar gyfer eitem
6 yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from item 6 in accordance with Standing Order
17.42(vi).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved.
|
|
[285] Bethan Jenkins: Eitem 5: cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y
cyhoedd. A ydy hynny’n iawn gan bawb? Grêt. Diolch yn
fawr.
|
Bethan Jenkins: We’ll move on to item 5, which is a
motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public.
Is everyone content with that? Great. Thank you very much.
|
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion
agreed.
|
|
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
12:01.
The public part of the meeting ended at 12:01.
|